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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:34 pm 
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Lot's on the ECU - it's pretty much at the forefront of work every day :laugh: :ohmy:

Before I go there though, you touched on something that I've been meaning to come back to which is what should the upgrade path be for the stock CBR 125r owner who wants more power from their bike?

Ideally the upgrade path should look like this;

  • Performance Pack less Clutch Springs
  • Carbon Fiber Clutch Kit
  • everything else.

This is for the person who plans to do incremental upgrades and it comes with a caveat. Installing the Performance Pack without the clutch springs is not wise when viewed from the long term perspective. This path should only be undertaken by folks who will be going into the clutch kit with certainty at a later date. This path changed when we brought out the Carbon Fiber clutch - with 433% more grip over the previous cork-based clutch it's pretty much the first, last and only clutch you will need - probably for the life of the bike! We've been beating it mercilessly and when you consider that our clutch springs probably add at least 300% more clamping force, and you couple that with 433% more grip from the Carbon Fiber clutch - that side of things is pretty well done - which is a real big issue for the CBR125r whether stock or racing.

The more power you add to the bike - the harder it is on the clutch. So these things should be addressed first and if a person wants to go no further then the Performance Pack and the Carbon Fiber Clutch Kit - cool beans - you'll have more power and more reliability for the rest of your days.

BUT, if you want to go further on the power path, with, let's say, either our camshaft or the ECU, the foundation will all be in place to support that. This gets really important when you want to turn 12,500 RPM or run nitrous or what have you. But, I mean, just keeping it simple, why replace the clutch with anything less that we know will eventually slip? Do it once and do it right and be done with it.

Anyway, you asked about how the ECU is coming along - it's doing remarkably well. I've been running on it for probably about a month now (maybe longer) and it's made regular trips to neighboring towns etc. It's also making top speed test runs on a regular basis. I'm very close to breaking the ton and expect to do that some time this week. This is with our Performance Pack, Camshaft, aftermarket exhaust, Carbon Fiber Clutch Kit, and, of course, the ECU. This is also with deeper gearing then stock. So the gearing is NOT designed for top speed runs - it's designed for good hole shots :biggrin: 'Highway' gearing will come in later when we hope to shatter the 200 KPH barrier (124 MPH).

So there's lots going on and I try to couple it with some fun high speed runs wherever possible to take a break from the intense CAD work and the logistics of ordering up components and parts etc. To highlight what I'm faced with, work on the ECU tends to fall into these categories;

  • Individual Circuit Design
  • CAD implementation of the overall circuit board design (including things like heat-sinking, fitment, power protection etc)
  • Prototype Circuit Board Manufacturing (for fully functional pre-production test units)
  • Parts/Component Ordering
  • Prototype ECU assembly (it's all surface mount components, a dog's fleas are bigger then many of the components)
  • Testing
  • Re-design where needed
  • Implementing Supported Features
  • Test Riding
  • Map creation/test riding/dyno testing etc

So it's a huge amount of work. I absolutely nailed the very first revision from a functionality standpoint. Literally, everything works and I'm doing all the testing on that first revision and this was a huge success! Even so, there are things that should have been done differently from an integration perspective and from a mass-production perspective. And so, revision 2.0 is under way. 2.0 is the big one, it should be the final (and only!) re-design and it's considerably more complex then 1.0, but after that, it's done although it may need minor tweaking if/when it makes it to the factory for mass production although this is no big deal and other people can do that as all the hard work has been done :top:

With a conventional 'piggy-back' ECU add-on, such as the Power Commander, this is all non-applicable because the only thing it can do is alter the air/fuel ratio. This is a complete ECU replacement so it's an entirely new 16 bit computer. When you plug it in, it does not know how to start the bike! It knows nothing at all about what it's installed into. It doesn't know how many cylinders it has, how big the injectors are, what sensors it has, what the timing should be, where top dead center is - it's very much the same as building a new desktop computer with no operating system installed. You turn it on and it sits there :laugh:

In the Power Commander world you create and air/fuel ratio map - that's it. With respect to this ECU - it's entirely open. EVERYTHING can be changed from the number of cylinders to the number of injectors, to the timing, to coolant fan control, to the rev limiter etc etc etc. It's wide-open. It's unlocked. It doesn't care if the engine is a big block Chevy or a 7 cubic inch CBR 125r :laugh:

It's worth noting that Honda doesn't make their own ECU's. They are made for Honda by a team of engineers at a company called Keihin. They develop the entire 'operating system' for the bike - how it starts when cold, hot, how it idles, what the power curve looks like, the timing curve, the coolant fan operation, what the sensors do etc.

Given that the new ECU is a 'blank slate' I have to do all the same things! :blink: :rolleyes: :huh: Now don't go getting alarmed because when/if they go 'public' they will come fully loaded with the software configured. It's Plug 'N Play baby! :top: But the end user can alter everything to suit their own specific needs.

So, there's hardware design, which is largely done, and then there's creating the software to run the bike, which is also largely done (I ride it all the time!) but it's a tough job. The Japs really know their stuff when it comes to the stock ECU. It is unreal, other then that it's locked and you can do nothing with it at all. I've had to design all my modifications to the bike around the stock ECU. This is very limiting. Once the ECU is open, you can then go back to making any change to the package (the bike) that you want - the ECU supports it all. Want to add a turbo? No problem, native support. Two-stage nitrous oxide injection? Native support. Clutchless upshifting? Native support. 200cc engine? Native support. Supercharger? Native support.

Making the bike run well when riding is easy. Making the bike start perfectly at all temperatures (cold start, hot start, warm start, cool start) this is where the men get separated from the boys :happy: In OE configuration, no matter what the temperature, you stab the starter button once and the bike instantly fires up (I call it 'insta-start'). If it's cold it goes to 1650 RPM and decreases as the engine temperature increases. When it's hot it goes straight to 1450. These are the tough things to replicate. Typically this is done by a team of engineers at Keihin with decades of fuel injection experience. I have to have that same level of expertise. So hardware design is one thing, and it's a BIG thing, and then there's creating the software to run the bike properly so it remains a perfectly behaved bike that anyone can ride, at any temperature, and also go like snot.

A LOT of progress has been made on that front. Along the way, you start to see design issues with the engine in the bike that you would never see any other way. I found a 'reverberation' that makes operation at certain RPM's annoying. This is something that can be tuned out but you discover that this is part of the engine design and it needs to be addressed. You will never see that with any other system. It won't show on the dyno - unless you are a Keihin engineer or you have this ECU you'll never see it. They too had to design this out for the stock ECU.

I nailed down a perfect copy of the stock hot idle the other day (I've since improved on it greatly - the goal is not to replicate Keihin's work - it's to improve on every facet of it) and then took out the dB killer in the exhaust because it had a rusty bolt. The idle instantly changed and it had to be completely re-worked. That little dB killer had a massive effect on the operation of the engine. I then took the bike out to re-tune the entire operation with the dB killer removed. I found out that the smoothness of the bike, at all operating ranges, increased by a factor of 10 (!!) It was like riding a brand new bike. Something as simple and as innocuous as a tiny dB killer had a massive detrimental effect to the operation of the bike all through the RPM range. The designers of the aftermarket exhaust did not know that. They could not see it. It would never show up on a dyno and they just added in the dB killer with no real understanding as to what it's actual effect was on the bike's operation. That alone underscores just how powerful this new ECU is. With it you see everything and it's really, really surprising what you see!

So from a tuning perspective, or from the perspective of someone making 'performance' parts for these bikes it's a requirement. It's not optional. If the exhaust company had been able to see what that dB killer actually did they would have re-designed it (I hope) before releasing it as a product.

Earlier I mentioned that the goal is to not just replicate the OE fuel injection system, it's to improve on it. Last week I went for a trip through the mountains. One segment of the ride is a very steep climb to the apex of the mountain (8 kilometers above sea level) so it's a steep hill. Normally I fly up that aspect of the climb passing cars in the left lane. This time I was tuning the bike and was incredibly surprised to find that I could lug the bike up that steep hill 3 gears too high and the bike was as smooth as silk. It's one of the only times in my life that I sat in the right lane as if I were driving a moped. What's the point? The stock ECU cannot be lugged down by running 3 gears too high and still be smooth as silk. That was a huge, huge improvement over stock!

Keeping parts coming for this project is almost a full-time job in itself. Some of the components can't be sourced over here and have to come from China - they're not available anywhere else. So I tend to have to work 1 month ahead so that the one month lag time means no delays in the development. When I need the component, it's here :biggrin:

Support for the auxiliary devices is no small challenge either. I'm in the middle of sourcing a nitrous system and this really amounts to designing a nitrous system. That's no big deal but then it has to be installed at some point and tested :cool: These days taking the bike apart (again) and installing new sub-components can get frustrating. The talk around the water cooler up here has been centered around how big the first nitrous shot should be and how big the second stage nitrous shot should be. This alone is quite revolutionary in it's own right.

From the outset, with respect to nitrous, I realized that the engine's small size (7 cubic inches!!) lends itself to very long lasting nitrous bottles. We sat down and roughed in the math the other night (very rough, just guessing based on previous nitrous experience) and we figured that with two 1.5 pound bottles (one on each side) for a total capacity of 3 pounds of nitrous, we would probably have enough to last for at least an entire tank of fuel, or, about 200 kilometers of continuous nitrous boost!!!

In the real world you never run under boost 100% of the time. Perhaps not even 25% of the time. So what does this mean? It means that it's entirely possible that a single nitrous fill may last for no less then 4 tanks for fuel! That's a LOT of nitrous but it's due to the engine being only 7 cubic inches. This lends itself to an entirely new concept, using nitrous as a regular part of your motorcycle's normal operation. The ECU supports full nitrous configuration, this means, you can set the timing to auto-retard under boost, you can set it up so that the first nitrous stage only comes on at a certain RPM and that second comes on at a different RPM and what the coolant temperature needs to be for it to be active (ie. won't come on if engine is cold) and also what throttle position the throttle needs to be in for the nitrous to come on. All of this configure ability, which comes out of the new replacement ECU, means that nitrous can be part of your daily drive. If you set it to only come on at certain throttle positions and RPM then it can be tuned to only come on when passing, for example.

The nearest analogy to this would be the current hybrid car. They run on battery and kick down to the engine when needed. Up until now, nitrous has been relegated to short term hits of the button where you go 'yahooo!' for about 10 seconds....what I'm talking about is nitrous as a regular part of the driving experience. But the talk around the water cooler so far has been should we use a 5 HP shot for for the first stage and a 10HP shot for the second stage or would it be better to run 5 and 5? :laugh:

Another subsystem from the ECU is the 'quick shifter'. Quickshifter support is technology borrowed from MotoGP. It means that you can do wide open throttle clutch-less up-shifts. We sourced a Ducati quickshifter but found that it would not work so we have to source a different design. That's all been done, we just have to order it and....integrate it :wacko: None of these things are hard to do, and would normally be a joy, but when you're doing that plus working on the ECU design, plus managing parts order flows and designing new circuits while tuning the cold start of the bike while trying to break the ton in your spare time, it's work. More work :laugh:

There's way, way more to this ECU then I've mentioned, most of it is confidential, but what I'll do at some point is split this post and re-title it and post up some teaser videos. Have you ever seen the CBR 125's ignition running at 25,000 RPM? I can show you that without letting too much of the cat out of the bag :cool: Besides, it's a great way to highlight the importance of the revised ignition that comes with the Performance Pack. The Performance Pack's ignition will support some pretty amazing things and with the new ECU we can now actually show all of that with a short video. We can spool it right up to 25,000 RPM and you can watch the spark :cool: We can change the dwell, in real-time, and you can watch how the thickness of the spark changes. You can see, in real-time, the effect of dwell changes to the spark. This is amazing stuff and every day I come up with new ideas to roll into the ECU :laugh: One of the ones that's been bandied about quite a bit is....remote start :smile:

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Marvin Miller
cbr125world Store

...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:58 pm 
Marvin - that sounds really fantastic. I like the flexibility of your programmable ECU. It sounds like you won't need to design a completely new one - for a different bike. Just program it differently. With the exhaust baffle that you mentioned - I immediately thought that you could re-design the baffle so that the bike produces better power (and smoothness) - while also keeping noise down too....... by re-programming the ECU!!! This could lead to you developing and marketing exhausts that are specifically tuned to run well with your ECU. Impressive.

Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:08 pm 
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Racing ECU (!!)
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Location: Parksville, BC, Canada
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Thanks Mike - it's coming along really well and I'm constantly amazed by the results. That dB killer 'discovery' was huge. The bike is really only roughed in as far as the tune goes mostly because I just needed it up and running so that I could get away from my desk! So it's yet to have any real concentrated thought or effort put into it. Even so, after the dB killer was removed and the tune was adjusted it led to big leaps forward because the ECU can adapt to these changes.

I'm finding that it's able to be lugged down like you would not believe, and run really well with a smoothness that's unmistakable, and when you drop it down two gears and pin it, it takes off like a race bike. This is really nice because it means great cruising and also great performance. Our old Cadillac CTS was like that, quiet as can be, smooth as silk, put the foot to the floor and the exhaust opened up and it took off like a rocket. It was the sound of ripping silk :smile: I really love that dual-nature and I'm starting to see that in the 125, which says a lot, because the camshaft that's in there is big for the engine. It's a racing cam so usually you have all sorts of driveability hits that come with that but when you have a fully adjustable ECU you can tune right around it.

Anyway, literally, back to the drawing board. I'd like to complete 2.0 by weeks end and have it sent off for manufacturing :top: I'm getting closer to closing the deal on the 2-stage nitrous kit, it looks like they have bottle brackets that will fit the bike (yeeeeha!!!! No fabricating!) and that means I need to speed things up as the NOS is not that far away...

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...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:46 pm 
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Marvin,

Sounds even better than I could have imagined. Is it pretty easy to change the clutches while your doing the springs?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:17 pm 
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It's not hard but you do need two tools that cost $30 when you want to change out the clutch - they also work with other bikes. Once the springs are off (required to change them) the clutch is all that's left. It's really just one more step beyond changing the springs.

More & more I'm finding that between the springs and the 430% increase in bite from the Carbon Fiber clutch, the issues are gone!

I am finding that if the clutch is really cold (stone cold in winter) then it can be hard to find neutral until it's warmed up a bit. I've seen the same behavior when it's really stinkin' hot as in the hottest days of summer and you've really been beating the bike.

I think this is common with Carbon Fiber or any of the high-end clutches and their increased grab but, and this is the real point, I can't kill it - and I've tried. Repeatedly. I should be well through my second clutch now with everything it's endured and it's still showing zero signs of wear and it's clamping as hard as it did new. For all I know, it may not even be fully broken in yet! That really would not surprise me. It's that big of a difference over the cork-based clutch. Mind you, the cork based clutch won't exhibit the neutral behaviour in extreme temperatures but the trade-off is that they don't last forever.

I find it really remarkable, between the Performance Pack and the new clutch kits it's a whole new bike, but, as importantly, every weak link in the bike has been addressed so maintenance costs are reduced to nothing but oil changes and the odd valve lash. I can't see the plug/wire ever needing replacement so tune-ups really are a thing of the past. And...I can pass most everything on the freeway in the left lane unless the traffic is flowing very fast. So it's freeway capable and I ride it their all the time.

A number of folks have bought the Performance Pack and the Clutch Kit in one shot. This makes sense and I think it's about $225 or so for both. It really blows me away when you consider the value for the money and the return on investment when it comes to the Performance increase. The only thing that would get you close to that increase is a bore kit and they tend to run $500 to $800 depending on what you get. If you're fuel injected it tends to be closer to $750 as you need some form of controller. That's expensive power! And then you still have to content with the weak clutch and the goofy gearing - except it's all worse now because you have more power. So you still have to come back to that if a person elects to go the bore kit route. The more power you add, the more the clutch will slip unless it's been addressed already and the only way to do that is our springs and our CF clutch. There are no other HD springs on the market and there are no other Carbon Fiber clutch kits on the market for this bike. The "HD" springs on e-bay are either the wrong springs or they are the generic '10% increase springs' which is no-where near enough of an increase in pressure.

This is why I think that between the Performance Pack and the Clutch Kit a person can either call it a day and stop there, and enjoy the benefits or, if they want to go further, then they have already laid the foundation for adding real power at a later date.

You could also just as easily call them both a Maintenance Pack. Even if a person doesn't want to improve the bike's performance but needs to just do the maintenance then there's really no point in not improving it at the same time. By the looks of it, you'll never wear out the clutch and I know you'll never wear out the ignition. So you can take tune-ups off the table and future clutch replacements. It's all done at that point and never has to be re-visited.

Oil changes, the odd valve lash, that's about it. If you put enough miles on it, and don't lubricate the chain, then you will need the odd sprocket or chain but we're also talking about routine maintenance.

If you ask me, it's pretty darn cheap performance and it changes into a whole new bike! 6th gear is actually useful, zero to top speed has been reduced by 5 seconds, the front wheel will come up off the ground when power shifting into second, and sometimes 3rd - it's all a dramatic improvement for very little $$$ :top: Or, it's the ultimate maintenance kit. I guess it depends on how you look at it. Either way, it's good - and then some :top: :bike:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:55 pm 
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Performance Pack

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Cdubya4ya wrote:

Is it pretty easy to change the clutches while your doing the springs?


Changing the clutch is only one extra nut. I used an impact gun and the back brake to get the clutch hub nut off. I got the clutch hub socket from mopedfactory for $9.90usd and free shipping on eBay but took 30 days to arrive from china.

Tightening the hub nut is kinda difficult as I didn't want to use the impact gun and strip or over tighten. This is where a clutch holding tool would be nice to get proper torque on the nut but I did without.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:01 am 
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Location: Horwich
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So late evening (GMT time zone) Monday 29th December 2014 I made the purchase for the Performance pack + other goodies. Today the 6th January 2015 (8 days later) I got a nice parcel from cbr125world.com based in Canada and I'm based in the United Kingdom... 8 days to travel half way round the world in probably the busiest time of the year for the postal services is pretty darn amazing.

Anyway. 2 days ago I came off my bike :( BUT luckily it was only the R/H side indicators, mirror and grip/bar end & brake lever that took the brunt of the impact at approx 35mph (approx 55kph) so I have ordered the bits to get it back to road legal and they should be arriving this week so this weekend I shall be fitting everything on the bike and giving the bike a good thrashing for a week and should be giving a review about the products on the 17th/18th of this month.

My bike has also done 19,000 miles (this is approx 30,578 Kilometers) well above the recommended change time from Marvin so there should be a BIG difference

Alex.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:14 pm 
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Racing ECU (!!)
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Bolton wrote:
So late evening (GMT time zone) Monday 29th December 2014 I made the purchase for the Performance pack + other goodies. Today the 6th January 2015 (8 days later) I got a nice parcel from cbr125world.com based in Canada and I'm based in the United Kingdom... 8 days to travel half way round the world in probably the busiest time of the year for the postal services is pretty darn amazing.


Awesome! I've also been surprised how fast our orders end up in the hands of our customers :top: What people don't always realize is that they also didn't have to pay tax or duty on the shipment :cool: :smile: It can amount to a lot depending on the destination country :ohmy:

Bolton wrote:
Anyway. 2 days ago I came off my bike :( BUT luckily it was only the R/H side indicators, mirror and grip/bar end & brake lever that took the brunt of the impact at approx 35mph (approx 55kph) so I have ordered the bits to get it back to road legal and they should be arriving this week so this weekend I shall be fitting everything on the bike and giving the bike a good thrashing for a week and should be giving a review about the products on the 17th/18th of this month.


It sounds like you were fortunate! Do you have good tires? Also, what year is your bike? Is it fuel injected or carbureted? Just curious. Good thing there wasn't too much damage - to you or the bike! :top:

Bolton wrote:
My bike has also done 19,000 miles (this is approx 30,578 Kilometers) well above the recommended change time from Marvin so there should be a BIG difference


I think you're going to be very happy with it. If you have any issues during the install feel free to ask. The plug wire sometimes causes people a but of grief. The key to that one is choking up on the wire so that it's right near the coil and then snapping it loose. You will want to install the rubber cush dampers in the rear wheel too. I think you'll find they are shot. Also, if you've never had the valves lashed by this point (would be hard to believe) that's important too.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:28 pm 
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I have the 2008 model CBR (Fuel injected) with Dunlop Arrowmax tyres on it, I bought the bike October last year and haven't done anything apart from the odd oil change as and when required, this pack is the start to my modding of my bike, I've only just sorted finances out to properly start spending on the bike so wheels are next on the agenda and I'm thinking of either Battleaxe's or Mettzeler's.

I will be installing everything on the bike this Sunday, what do you mean by getting the vales lashed..? This is my 2nd bike (both being CBR's my other bike got stolen but was a 2005 model (Carburetor).

Alex

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:25 pm 
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Hi Alex;

With respect to valve lash, they are adjustable and they need to be done roughly every 10,000 K (or so) once the initial lash has been set after the engine breaks in (when new). It's very common for people to overlook this side of maintenance and it can make a very big difference in the smoothness of the engine as well as how it starts. It doesn't cost anything to do it yourself and it's not hard but the easiest way is to lift the tank, remove the rad, remove the front side panels and then it's easy going. You don't have to do it this way, in theory you can push the rad out of the way but whenever I do it, I just do it. Anyway, there's a bug in your ear now :laugh:

With respect to the carbon fiber clutch kit, just to make sure you know, you do need a special socket and wrench to do it. Let me know if you don't and I can put you onto the right stuff.

I'm certain you'll be very impressed with it. Just the Carbon Fiber clutch and TrueHD springs alone will make a big difference on a 30K bike let alone the revamped ignition, gearing and especially the cush drive rubbers. I won't spoil it for you but you'll love it ! :top:

If you have specific questions please use the new forum for the Performance Pack owners - that's the place to get support for that etc. You should have access to them now that you're a customer :top:

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cbr125world Store

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