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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:29 am 
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mmiller wrote:
Precis wrote:
If there is a way to do similar with Honda's ECUs, it will negate the need for a lot of mechanical experimentation!


There isn't. The ECU used in the 125, and all Honda's that I am aware of, is made by Keihin. It's not made by Honda. It's a 3rd party device that has no re-programmable ability. It's hard-coded to do what it does. This means, to all intents & purposes, it's locked. It cannot be re-written. The programming is burned into it.

...


Yeah, I think that Honda dropped the ball on that one. There are MANY bikes out there that have ECU's that can be updated, modified or even changed.

I wonder what their thinking was on that? I'm sure that they knew about other programmable ECU's out there. The one thing I can think of is that they were concerned that bike owners would mess up their ECU and try to get a free one say under warranty for instance.

A TRULY programmable ECU would truly release the bikes potential! Especially with the Performance Pack and a Performance Cam! And then add in a BBK and that would just make this an unreal bike!!

But as you put it, at what cost? Your Performance Cam costs money, and then to develop and market a replacement ECU (after the developmental costs, production cost, etc.) will be fairly pricey. Then throw in a BBK on top of that and you’ve got a FAST and powerful bike, but at what cost (in dollars)…

Well, I can dream…

Honda had a REAL opportunity to take this bike to the “next level” if they had only thought it out a little and allowed for at least some programmability of the ECU! Heck, even to be able to update the EC Map would be a plus!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:19 pm 
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Well, their thinking is going to be somewhat hampered, or at least influenced by Keihin, the people that make Honda's ECU's. It takes effort & time to create a perfect ECU for the corresponding engine it's going to run. This is why you see 'ECU Improvements' listed as a contributing factor in increased performance in successive CBR600RR models even though not much else has changed. Yet the bike is faster. What happened?

The Keihin engineer spent more time on the ECU perfecting the program/software that runs the bike. They spent more time on it and they squeezed more power from the engine as a result. So there may not be any other real changes between last year's model vs. this years other then that the ECU has been better tailored.

It costs a lot of money for a Keihin engineer to sit down and improve on an existing bike's performance. In the case of the CBR125 - not much time is going to be spent on extracting power from it. It's an entry-level bike. The goal is going to be reliability and driveability and that's it. So there is probably a considerable amount of improvement that can be done on the software in the ECU.

The rationale behind Honda's engineers, with respect to end-user's altering the ECU is going to be warranty-related and also related to detracting from their image. Honda has spent decades perfecting their bikes - they are a Honda, nothing else is quite like them. Legendary reliability, smooth running performance, a comfortable bike - these are all hallmarks that Honda engineers have worked very hard to create as their own brand.

If the end user is allowed to go in and change the timing curve, lean the engine out to the point of detonation, and all sorts of other things - these are going to come back on the company as a customer-induced warranty claim costing Honda money. The end user can do a lot of damage if he goes monkeying around in the there. Personally, I think this is a secondary concern when weighed out against Honda's reputation. I think the potential hit to their reputation is much more important to them. Imagine if someone went in, monkeyed with the software, and made the bike run like crap. That bike was then ridden by others and their impression is that Honda's aren't very smooth. I suspect this is their real fear.

There's also the cost factor. I'm certain that Keihin, as a 3rd party supplied to Honda, is going to charge considerably more for a more/less open ECU then for their locked down ECU. This impacts the cost of the bike. Then you get into the real nuts and bolts - how many end users are actually qualified to go in and monkey with the way their engine operates? Not many that I know of. A truly open ECU means you could do things like cause the ignition to fire well before the piston is at top dead center, something like 120 degrees of advance. No engine will last under that scenario....

But, it's not all bad news. Our prototype camshaft is working very well under the stock ECU. It's not 100% perfect, but that's to be expected as it is a racing camshaft. The engine is a little bit on the lean side however a forthcoming injector change may well be a 'magic bullet'. I came to the conclusion a while back that a larger injector may also be a 'magic bullet' when it comes to a bore kit. Mike reported to me that another rider did just that with a bore kit and that it works perfectly!! So this is really good news as it means that a rider could stave off the whole ECU issue - even at the camshaft and bore kit level....

I'll have an injector in short order. At that point I will be able to determine from direct experience whether the camshaft & injector is truly a magic bullet. I'm thinking it probably will be given that even without the larger injector the bike is awesome (Camshaft & Performance Pack alone).

In my particular development path I'm intentionally taking limited steps to determine suitability for other riders. So in my case it's looking like this;

-Stock ECU
-Performance Pack (awesome - biggest bang for the buck period and a required foundation for other power increases)
-Prototype Camshaft (incredible but costly but amortized over the life of the bike - not a lot of money in that respect)
-Larger Injector (unknown to date, may open the door to other mods without ECU change)
-Exhaust (required in my case due to increased breathing all the way around)
-ECU replacement (last on the list)
-Nitrous (because the ECU will support it and I always wanted a jet pack)

So it's not like every rider needs a new ECU. I'm intentionally charting a path that will hopefully keep everyone away from that. The ECU is rocket science. The only Keihin engineers who will truly understand it would be the people who work on the MotoGP ECU's for Honda. These are going to be the very cream of the crop. For me personally, these are engineering exercises. It's motorcycle re-engineering. This is normally not done. The costs are way, way too high and the skill sets required are extremely rare. That is what intrigues me - it's beating decades of Honda engineers at their own game and coming out with a bike that the western world writes off due to it's small size and using that very instrument to clean their clocks :laugh:

Along the way, if I can chart a cost-effective path for others to reap similar benefits, without encountering bank-breaking costs, this is a great thing. It allows others to piggy-back off of my development and benefit from it. This is where the Performance Pack came from. For those who avail themselves of it, they get a very large increase for little money. Much more then they will ever get from something like exhaust which costs 3-4x more. This extends the life of the bike, makes it a LOT more fun to ride (and race) and if they want to stop there they can. While doing that they are actually improving every weak link in the original design. So if they keep the bike they don't even have to give it a tune-up. I'm quite certain all the ignition components from the Performance Pack will last 50,000 kilometers. Same with the clutch springs. SO the idea has always been to offer up an inexpensive kit for riders with a stock bike, that want to make it faster, that is economical and improves the design of the bike by leaps and bounds. On the flip side, a rider with an older bike, that needs a tune-up or some significant maintenance, can accomplish the same thing with an easy to install kit. Once done, you can say good by to annual tune-ups, semi-annual tune-ups, or even, depending on how many miles you put on the bike, decade tune-ups.

I don't foresee anyone ever wearing out the plug or the wire or the clutch springs that are included with the Performance Pack. All of those items are representative of extreme over-engineering for our bike. They all increase the performance, but at the same time, they will, in all likelihood, put an end to ever having to do a tune-up on the bike ever again.

There are two areas where the bike can be easily & cheaply re-designed with a very high impact. The first is tires & suspension. The second is the Performance Pack. Between those two changes a rider will have a whole new bike at a very low cost. You can out-handle anything on the road and the Performance Pack, certainly in my case, has negated a 75cc advantage over larger bikes. Now that's what I call a bore kit - and then some!

Typical bore kit price = $500
Performance Pack Price = $149.95

Another name for the Performance Pack could be 'Never Need A Tune-Up Again' Pack :laugh: :biggrin: :top:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:20 pm 
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Oh, but the other thing I was going to say (oh no! There's more! :rolleyes: ) is that you shouldn't get disheartened that the cost of these things is not cheap. The thing to always remember is that the first one (the prototype) is always expensive. But I was just thinking the other day that's it's entirely possible I could get someone over here to manufacture them on a one-off basis (now that I have a proper prototype) and that they will cost less.

Same thing with shipping. At the start I could not get a decent shipping price. Since then I've managed to cut the cost in half. So as time goes on the prices on everything will decrease. This is something I'm always working on. So the costs today will not be the costs tomorrow :top:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:01 am 
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Yeah I agree! The total cost of developing and producing a replacement ECU could be cost-prohibitive. Especially in small numbers. Unless you find a developer that is willing to “work for parts/food”. :laugh:

The Performance pack DOES give the best bang for buck! :top: There is no arguing that at all! Add in a couple of other simple and/or low cost additional mods (i.e. better/larger tires, snorkel mod, improved bike suspension, etc.) and a cost effect replacement cam and a larger Fuel Injector; then the requirement for a replacement ECU, or attempting to modify it (add-on units, in line resistor, etc.) drop.

If all your testing with the (I assume it’s the CBR150 Fuel Injector you’re looking at) new Fuel Injector goes as you suspect, then the requirement for a new ECU may become a distant thought!!

We’ve seen others use a CBR150 injector on the 125 in the past, and while it did provide an increase in power, without the Performance Pack, they are pretty much leaving a lot of potential power “on the table” ...so to speak.

I also agree with you that Honda must have spent a lot of time and money in laying out the requirements for the 125’s ECU (I wonder if the exact same ECU is used in any of their other bikes i.e. the CBR150, etc.) and they wouldn’t have released a product without EXTERNSIVE testing beforehand. In fact, I would have imagined that all their testing would have resulted in Keihin being required to make any finial changes to the production version before they would be placed in the CBR125.

It’s just too bad that there isn’t an easy and inexpensive way to connect to the bike’s ECU for diagnostic purposes at the very least. I can get a cheap (under $20) Blue tooth adapter for my car to read the OBDII codes for instance. My SR50, after enter a “secret code” allows me to see any ECU and/or Dash Board Error Codes (there's a possible 23 ECU error codes, and 7 Dash Board error codes possible). They are invaluable in diagnosing a problem with the bike and then fixing it. In fact there are 4 “critical” ECU codes that result in either the bike shutting down to protect itself, or preventing the bike from starting all together. Again to protect itself (SMART BIKE!!!).

Plus, many of us have added an External Fuel Regulator (made by High Gain Tuning http://www.highgaintuning.com/category_s/2.htm) that in our case gives us 2 EXTREMELY valuable diagnostic tools, IN ADDITION to being able to increase the fuel pressure and as such, add more Dyno-proven power. In addition to the Fuel Pressure gauge, he has added in an Air Pressure gauge that allows us to monitor our bikes Air Compressor pressure (VITAL in our case being Direct Injection and needing air pressure to start and run our bikes). The added Air Pressure to the Fuel Regulator aids the regulators spring to provide even more of an increase in fuel pressure (not that it is needed, but it's there.)!! In fact it "could" be pushed so high as to flood the bike REALLY bad! But with a simple glance, we can see if we have enough, or any Fuel Pressure or Air pressure to start and run our bikes. Plus we are able to adjust the Fuel Pressure "on the fly" without having to shut the bike down. He has also added these External Fuel Regulators to other bikes to help increase fuel pressure beyond what the bike normally produces. Obviously with a couple of fewer parts that is specific to the SR50 (i.e. Air Pressure gauge, Fuel Bowl block-off and supliment air line, etc.). His blog has more info on how and why it works so well.

Can’t wait to see your report on the new injector!!!!! :bike:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:30 am 
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grenadiers wrote:
I also agree with you that Honda must have spent a lot of time and money in laying out the requirements for the 125’s ECU (I wonder if the exact same ECU is used in any of their other bikes i.e. the CBR150, etc.) and they wouldn’t have released a product without EXTERNSIVE testing beforehand. In fact, I would have imagined that all their testing would have resulted in Keihin being required to make any finial changes to the production version before they would be placed in the CBR125.


Actually I meant it's the opposite - I think what's happened is that Honda just sent the specs for the engine over to Keihin and they just stamped out their regular 'make it run reliably' base-line, no frills ECU. That's kind of my point, they spend their engineering and development time on bikes that have much more margin in them and are more important to their image and to performance, such as the CBR 600RR or the CBR 1000RR. The 125 is their lowest priced entry level bike so the focus is only going to be on making it run reliably as opposed to fine-tuning and extracting as much power as they can. They'll save those costs and efforts for bikes with margin in them.

With respect to developing the prototype ECU, I've already got another electronics engineer on tap, this one looks to be the real deal, and we've already started negotiations. However, I am also willing to do it myself. The issue is, if I do it myself, it will take a hit with respect to PNP. It will end up being a direct-wire install which is not really something I was after. However, given that this project is likely only going to be for myself the ECU will be the last re-design of the bike that I undertake for the reasons that I wanted to do all the mods I envision, preferably in conjunction with the stock ECU, so I can determine if there is a path there for others to follow with respect to other possible products to market. The issue with leaving the ECU to last is also one of complexity and time. It takes a LOT of dedicated time to design/flesh out and develop the ECU. It would be best if everything else was done so that ALL of my attention could be devoted to it.

With respect to the injector, I was planning on doing something different then the OEM 150cc unit. Availability constraints caused me to go the conventional route for now. The camshaft's profile has left the bike lean in places so the injector is there to take care of that. We'll see how it works, I suspect it will be an excellent remedy. I also have exhaust coming so the idea is to do a dyno run with the camshaft & injector (provided it does what it should) and then perhaps another run with the exhaust to see exactly what the results are.

With respect to self-diagnostics, the Keihin ECU, like most ECU's, has self-diagnostic abilities. It will blink the MIL light in a pattern such that you can see what codes are stored inside and then consult the service manual in an effort to track down the issue.

This thread would probably be better if it were pruned since this is actually a thread for the sales announcement of the Performance Pack.... :laugh:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:33 pm 
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Precis wrote:
Remapping ECUs:

....The results are, frankly, astounding: on both our bikes, there was a significant improvement in smoothness and power: the bikes now power-wheelie on the throttle, despite weighing about 250kg, and fuel consumption improved by between 15 and 25% depending upon riding style. This means a tank of fuel will now take us an extra 80+km.

If there is a way to do similar with Honda's ECUs, it will negate the need for a lot of mechanical experimentation!


This is very encouraging for me as there have been many times when riding the bike that I know that something just isn't right. And it's not that something is wrong with the design of the bike, it just seems to me that the software is not perfect. These bikes have a rattle at certain RPM points that makes me think the timing is not correct in that area. There are other areas, and other noises, where, if you are really paying attention, could be improved. All of this would have to be done at the ECU software level, or, in this case, replacement and programming.

Just the changeover to sequential fuel injection alone would result in more power and considerably more smoothness. I am quite certain that, given enough time and effort, the bike would be so smooth it would be as an entirely new bike. More power, more fuel economy and probably a very dramatic change in smoothness.

During dyno testing the curve repeatedly showed jagged peaks all through the RPM range. The operator is very familiar with dyno testing (it's his machine and he's tuned tons of bikes) and was very surprised by this. He was trying to put his finger on what would cause it and one of the things he mentioned was perhaps too much timing. I don't know if his guess was/is correct but it did bring back to mind that it's probably just one more area that a custom ECU & software would probably fix.

An 80k+ increase in fuel range is remarkable. Really, your whole story is a testimony to what can be done when someone spends a lot of time properly tailoring an ECU to an engine. This is not what Keihin has done with the 125 for reasons mentioned earlier. So I'm sure there is a LOT of gravy to be picked off there...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:07 pm 
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OK, a quick "Fuel Consumption" update...

This weekend, I wanted to see (again) if I could run out of gas (yes, I was actually TRYING to run out of gas!!) and I'm beginning to believe that my tank is LARGER than 10 litres!! :laugh: Either that, or it doesn't know HOW to run out of gas! So of course I brought my 1 litre Fuel Cell just in case.

Saturday I went for a long ride, and figured that I was VERY close to running out after that as I had done 509Kms. Nope... I didn't run out. The Fuel Gauge was the lowest I've ever seen it. So I figured that I would just go and fill her up. It took a hair over 8Litres!! 8.007 to be exact (that works out to 63.5kms per/litre of fuel)! :top: I travelled over 500Kms on 8 Litres of gas!! Based on that, I may be able to expect to be able to go approx. 635Kms on 1 full take of gas!!

To say that I am impressed is an understatement!!! That means I can/could ride from Winnipeg to Regina (573Kms) with a bit of fuel to spare!!!!! HOLY CRAP!!!

Now, if only my Pacifica could do that!!! :laugh:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:07 pm 
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Are you sure those numbers are correct?

I've been tracking my fuel usage for the last few years and my average distance travelled between fill ups (going from full down to the bottom of the red) averages 238 Kilometres per tank. That's with an average economy of 81 MPG spread over the last year or so. It never varies much unless the clutch is on the way out. If that's the case it will tend to drop to around 65 MPG.

81 MPG is my average racing consumption (everyday riding for me). Even under 'normal' riding the most I'll usually see is 95 MPG.

In order for you to be getting more then 500 kilometers on a tank you'd have to double what I'm seeing and that would mean a minimum of between 160 MPG and 200 MPG (!!)

I routinely run the bike below the red and I can assure you, it's a 10 litre tank :biggrin: The most I've ever put in it has been 9.27 litres with average fills being between 8.5 and 9.0 litres. I think there might be something up with the numbers.... :top:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:16 am 
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mmiller wrote:
Are you sure those numbers are correct?

I've been tracking my fuel usage for the last few years and my average distance travelled between fill ups (going from full down to the bottom of the red) averages 238 Kilometres per tank. That's with an average economy of 81 MPG spread over the last year or so. It never varies much unless the clutch is on the way out. If that's the case it will tend to drop to around 65 MPG.

81 MPG is my average racing consumption (everyday riding for me). Even under 'normal' riding the most I'll usually see is 95 MPG.

In order for you to be getting more then 500 kilometers on a tank you'd have to double what I'm seeing and that would mean a minimum of between 160 MPG and 200 MPG (!!)

I routinely run the bike below the red and I can assure you, it's a 10 litre tank :biggrin: The most I've ever put in it has been 9.27 litres with average fills being between 8.5 and 9.0 litres. I think there might be something up with the numbers.... :top:


Yeah I have to admit it sounds “too good to be true”… It’s possible that I missed a bill, but I don’t think so… I was diligent in my attempts to run dry and hold off filling her up. Yet my cell phone program says my mileage went down a hair. But my “basic math” says something different (hence the possible missed bill). When I do a conversion from Km/L to L/100Km it works out to a fuel mileage of .635L/100Km (or 179MpG(UK) or 149MpG(US)!!). So I must have missed something... DAMN!! It looked good thou!

This next tank of gas will give me a clearer picture and I’ll report my findings. It takes me more than a week, almost 2 weeks, of riding to and from work (about 20K's return trip each day), plus what I manage to do on the weekends (weather permitting and it has been "permitting" for some time! :wink: In fact this weekend may also be a bit of a write-off due to weather… )


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:30 pm 
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Well the important thing is that you're riding :top:

I use Fuel Log Pro on my Android phone for calculating mileage. I have seen in the past that if I do a partial fill or top-off it can skew the results. Consequently, I only fill it when empty. Mine is set to MPG (UK) which I think is the right one. After 36 fill-ups my average is 81.85 MPG

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