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...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:50 pm 
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Racing ECU (!!)
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Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:21 pm
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Location: Parksville, BC, Canada
Canada
Hi Folks!

I'm pretty excited about this one :cool: For the past few months I've been beta testing a new Carbon Fiber Racing Clutch for the bike :top:

As many folks know, we've been busy shoring up the clutch in these bikes ever since we started putting power through it. This began with designing and manufacturing an entirely new true heavy-duty clutch spring that's only available from us, makes the bike able to actually lift the front wheel off the ground when shifting, and we've gone on from there.

Last year, working directly with our clutch supplier, we managed to get them to create all new numbers for the clutch lineup on these bikes. Literally, everything was revamped. During that process, we asked them to create a new Kevlar clutch option for the CBR125. They kindly agreed and sent us out the first sample for beta testing and we had the joy of having the first cbr125 in the world with an exotic Kevlar clutch installed :happy:

Even so, we still found that we had lifespan issues under hard usage. A steady diet of 11,000+ RPM, combined with the high heat of summer, and increased torque output, has led to short clutch lifespans under harsh conditions. Extensive experience has led us to believe this is caused primarily by two things, high heat & high RPM and that these two factors are exacerbated by the fact that our little bike only has 1.3 liters of oil in it, and no oil cooler.... That alone makes the case for a true synthetic oil...but that's another story. :cool:

This led me back to our supplier a few months ago when we asked them to create a new Carbon Fiber racing clutch for the bike. Once more, they rose to the occasion and sent us out the first sample.

I'm pleased to report that, after 3 months of harsh usage, the new Carbon Fiber clutch has held up well. Very well. I recently came back from a 1,100 kilometer trip where the bike saw 6 hours of almost continuous 11,000 RPM operation - one way :ohmy: The whole trick on that ride was keeping the bike off the rev-limiter in 6th as traffic was running at 130 KPH + for a large portion of the ride. The ambient temperature was hovering around 30c and the clutch was hot. Fully hot. I mean, really hot. The clutch already had several thousand K of abuse on it and I knew for a fact that if it was going to show early signs of failure that trip would do it and I kept my eye out for it. I was, after all, testing out a new clutch offering :top:

To my great surprise, the clutch operated well the entire trip. NO sign of early failure, no signs of heat-induced clutch fade. Just consistent performance over high temperatures, high RPM and several thousand kilometers through steep mountain passes (Lilloett) and valleys (the Fraser Canyon). I threw everything at it including racing other bikes all through the mountains from Pemberton to Lilloett.

We all know that the stock Honda clutch on these bikes is very soft. Put some torque through it and it's gone in no time. This is exacerbated with gearing changes that increase torque. Have you changed the gearing on your bike? If you went numerically lower then you just increased the torque and that means your clutch now has to work a lot harder....

Our unique custom HD springs are one key ingredient to the solution of the problem. The type of friction disks available have, until now, limited us from directly addressing that side of the equation. This is no longer the case. We can now run a proper exotic clutch set up that until recently has only been relegated to the liter-bike crowd.

Effective immediately, all our clutch kits will be comprised of Carbon Fiber disks. As far as I know, we are the only place you can get a proper CF clutch kit for this bike as we just played a key role in helping bring it to market :top:

If you're looking for a clutch replacement, or are looking to put some more power and torque through these bikes, consider very carefully the importance of shoring up that weak link because now you can address both the weak springs and the weak friction disks in one shot with one inexpensive kit. It doesn't really matter if you're into racing or not, do it once and do it right. There's little point to installing a cheaper clutch when all it's going to do is wear out sooner. What you need is a clutch with a lifespan so that you don't need to return to do it again.

Carbon Fiber is at the apex of current clutch development - it doesn't get any better then this - it's the best clutch technology out there. Carbon Fiber's unique attributes make it perfectly suited to a bike with a clutch that tends to get hot and has a very limited oil sump with no provision for oil cooling. Carbon Fiber has a better friction co-efficient then any other clutch and they are specifically designed to withstand sustained high RPM, which is another attribute Carbon Fiber shares with the CBR 125r.

Just to give you an idea, the Carbon Fiber clutch's friction co-efficient is 433% higher then that of our previous high performance cork-based clutch.

When combined with our true HD clutch springs (almost 400% greater clamping power) this represents the ultimate one-two punch to finally bring the best and the latest technology in clutches to the CBR 125r ! :top: Combine that with our Performance Packs and you have a comprehensive, and yet inexpensive, sweeping upgrade that addresses all the weak links in this bike and increases the performance considerably while reducing maintenance costs. If that ain't a recipe for success - I don't know what is. All backed by HD installation videos and comprehensive one on one support :top:

Here's some pics of the Carbon Fiber disks


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Marvin Miller
cbr125world Store

...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:14 pm 
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Performance Pack

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:06 am
Posts: 33
Location: GTA East
Canada
D'oh. I ordered mine 8 days too soon.

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2009 Black CBR125
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:53 pm 
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Racing ECU (!!)
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Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:21 pm
Posts: 535
Location: Parksville, BC, Canada
Canada
sRo wrote:
D'oh. I ordered mine 8 days too soon.


Don't feel bad - the cork-based friction is excellent and it's better then the OEM clutch. It clamps. The only issue has been that, due to this bike's unique design with respect to low oil volume and lack of an oil cooler, at high temperatures and high RPM the cork-based clutch will eventually degrade. Thing is, you have to subject it to very severe service to reach that point.

I routinely ride with 600's and up, racing, and under those conditions, where you absolutely wind the living piss out of the bike, all day long, then the cork-based clutch is not ideal.

The carbon fibre clutch for us is brand new. It did not exist 8 days ago (well, it did, but only on our bike). It was not never expected to be available for some time, probably a long time, before it even reached distribution.

Because of our unique relationship with our manufacturer we were able to squeeze out a special order and this required them to jump through some real hoops, at a bunch of different levels, to get us some. They don't exist in production at this point for the 125r.

I would not be concerned about running the cork-based clutch - it's still an excellent clutch and it's made much better yet with our custom springs. So it's still, way, way, way better then the OEM or even aftermarket options.

The issue for us has been that clutch fade due to heat and continuous high RPM started to highlight issues at the very far end of it's endurance. Most people don't live there.

The need for a different clutch material itself has been on our radar screen for some time. It was only recently that Carbon Fibre became an offering from our manufacturer. When we saw that we jumped on it in much the same way we did with the Kevlar based frictions last year.

Carbon Fibre addresses the two main issues we run into - heat and extended high RPM. Keep in mind though that for us, we're always looking ahead and we're always looking to bring the very latest proven technologies to the bike, or developing new ones ourselves when nothing else is available (such as the clutch springs and the Performance Pack).

Also, we're well down the path to increasing the power on the 125r by several orders of magnitude so we've always known that, during the development cycle, we were going to have to come back to clutch re-design. So the Carbon Fibre clutch option helps us personally as we are running the Performance Pack, our custom camshaft and we're going to be making really big moves forward with our Racing ECU replacement.

That last one is really important as it's going to mean that we extend the rev limiter on the bike (or disable it completely). So the RPM that our engine runs at is going to increase and we've already had it running at a TRUE 12,500 RPM. Our camshaft is making power beyond that so we may well go higher and we will be pushing the envelope to see just where our camshaft and valve springs limits are.

On top of that we will be running a two-stage nitrous system so the engine is going to be getting nailed with a rather large boost rate with the second stage coming on at high RPM. All of this is going to be harder and harder on the clutch - so we knew we's be coming back to it even as we were developing the HD springs a little over a year ago. We needed control over the clutch lining material itself because this enables us to increase the friction co-efficient and make it handle higher temps and higher RPM. So it's always been something we would come back to. The problem has been that it's taken until just a few days ago where we could make this reality.

So the bike is going to see some really severe service in the near future. If that weren't enough, we will also be implementing a quick shifter, controlled by our new ECU, and this will allow wide open throttle clutchless upshifts. Just pin it, hold it there, and lift the clutch lever with your left foot when necessary :laugh:

So there's a lot going on behind the scenes and what we try to do is that, with every stride forward on the re-design of the bike, we try not to forget all the people who are part of this thing and are customers of ours. So we try to always bring as much of that technology back to our customers as possible.

What we always want is the best for you! So we roll all of these advances into our products so that you can also make use of them. This does mean though, that at times, in a case like yours, you might get caught in a development cycle. But, the flip side is, unless you are really subjecting the bike to severe use (and we recommend this!) the cork-based clutch will be just fine. It's been our go-to clutch right up until recently.

But if we can offer the option of putting people straight into the latest, and if it's proven, then by all means, we'll upgrade our offerings as fast as we can - in this case it's probably going to be a year before you'll even see these offerings in regular distribution from other sellers.

Also, don't forget, the Carbon Fibre clutch does cost more then the cork-based clutch. But the cork-based clutch will clamp - it will not slip - until you get it really hot under severe service for a prolonged period. So it's not like you're going to see it fail any time soon and even if you do bring it to the failure point they fail very nicely with lots and lots of warning. You could cook that thing on one side of Canada and still make it home :laugh:

But we wanted a more permanent solution, one where the friction disks themselves match our unique springs. Up until now the springs really were 50% of the solution. They alone are a huge step forward but we were never able to address the other 50% of the solution which is a clutch that has an inherently higher friction co-efficient and handles heat and high RPM much better then other technologies.

So this a new thing - it's a brand new thing, and it's a brand new offering for 125 riders. We can now finally get the same clutch that all the high performance bikes have had for some time. And let's be clear, we needed it. All those high-end bikes have more friction disks, we have to make due with 5, they have much larger oil capacities, we have to make due with +1, and they have oil coolers, we have none! So we've needed a clutch technology advance for a long time now.

Now we have it :top:

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Marvin Miller
cbr125world Store

...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:49 pm 
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Performance Pack

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:06 am
Posts: 33
Location: GTA East
Canada
That's great news! The love and dedication you have for these little 125's is awesome! :bike:

Have you ever thought about adding an oil cooler, potentially doubling oil capacity and cooler temps?

I don't think I'm at the very severe service doing 120km/h @ 10,000rpm for my 35 minute commute :laugh:

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2009 Black CBR125
10/10/14-6727km


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:24 pm 
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Racing ECU (!!)
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Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:21 pm
Posts: 535
Location: Parksville, BC, Canada
Canada
Thanks sRo - it's nice to be appreciated! :top:

I have thought seriously about adding an oil cooler. Just as a quick aside, for the sake of others reading this thread, running a true synthetic will lower your oil temps by 25f and is one reason for adopting a true synthetic....

On the oil cooler front, it's not easy. The way I was looking at doing it was with a tiny electric pump that would fit in the sump and then drill & tap the case for the hoses and run them out to a retrofitted cooler. Or, changing the passages around on the oil pump. I was quite sure it would work but the cost of the pumps was high and then there's always the fear people would have with respect to drilling/tapping their case. So from a marketing perspective, I'm not sure it would be a winner.

I looked at it pretty closely but the big thing always comes back to the clutch, and keeping it from heat-induced fade and the corresponding slippage that occurs.

To me, at this point, the easy work-around is the Carbon Fiber clutch. The clutch linings are the real weak link, given real synthetic, the engine and transmission seem to have no issues with the oil temp being high. They are remarkably reliable. When I overhauled my engine I was really surprised to see how little wear there was. It really was just a matter of replacing all the bearings and the rings. Other then that, all other components were as new. Keep in mind how severely our test bike has been ridden!

So for now, between 100% synthetic and the new Carbon Fiber clutch, we should be good to go with respect to oil temps :top:

But...with respect to your commute....I just heard the doctor say it the other day....apparently, we all need a steady source of fibre! :laugh: So it's not just me sayin' it - the entire medical profession is in agreement :wink:

Seriously though, from a sales perspective, I'd say it's more like this. Racers should adopt the Carbon Fiber clutch because they need it and it will assist them in winning at the track. It's a significant strategic advantage over the competition. That clutch combined with our springs and you will see faster lap times due to it's increased clamping and ability to handle high revs and temps (ahem....Australia!...ahem)

On the the other hand there's the maintenance side of things. If you are a just a regular rider and need a clutch due to wear it makes no sense at all to install the same old same old because you'll only get the same old result. Who wants that? :rolleyes: Why not fix it while you're at it?

You're way better off to address the issue once and for all. So there's two sides to the coin when it comes to the Carbon Fiber clutch. If you need a clutch that clamps - here it is, if you need a clutch as part of maintenance - here it is. :top: I guess I look at it this way, it's important to me that customers get the best possible product they can as long as the price is reasonable. That's certainly the Carbon Fiber Clutch Kit :cool:

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Marvin Miller
cbr125world Store

...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:09 pm 
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Racing ECU (!!)
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Location: Parksville, BC, Canada
Canada
Just to clean this thread up a bit (I was a little too verbose in the initial post :laugh: );

The Stock OEM Honda clutch has Paper-based Friction Disks and truly weak clutch springs. This is a perfect recipe for clutch slip.
Our previous clutch kits were rubber-impregnated cork - a much better disk and all we could get at the time coupled with trueHD springs.
This was/is MUCH better then the stock paper clutch with weak springs.

Our rubber-impregnated cork-based clutch kits had a friction coefficient of about .03

The new Carbon Fiber Clutch Kits have a friction coefficient of about .13

This means 433% MORE GRIP than Rubber Impregnated Cork. This is a really big deal because that is a LOT more grip. On top of that, Carbon Fiber is much more impervious to heat and this means that heat-induced clutch fade is a thing of the past.

Heat-induced clutch fade has, up until now, been a real problem with the clutches in these bikes. Further, high RPM is hard on the clutch. Because these bikes are so small they tend to see high RPM all day long especially when re-geared. The longest we could get the cork-based clutches to last, under racing conditions, was 3 months. With respect to the Carbon Fiber clutch - we have yet to cause it any serious damage and it's running on our new ECU which means it's doing 12,500 RPM and has a LOT more power going through it.

The Carbon Fiber clutch kit is a vital Triple-Play when it comes to the clutches in these bikes because the trueHD springs increase the clamping force about 4 times over stock (400% or so) and now they are coupled with a friction disk material that has 433% more grip then cork.

I have no idea how much more grip that would be over the plain paper clutch disks that come with the bike from the factory but it will be more then 433% - a lot more.

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Marvin Miller
cbr125world Store

...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:07 am 
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Clutch Kit
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Canada
Hey there!
I'm doing some service on my 125 and I'm looking to grab one of your performance packs to get that little bit more out of the bike. But I have had some issue with the stock clutch slipping, which I hoped could be helped with the carbon fiber kit but I don't see that in the store anymore.
Is it no longer available or am I just missing it?
I'd like to get a lot more use out of this bike and I'll be following all of your products recommendations and videos to breathe some new life into. Thanks for the great content and great products!

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- Wyatt Avery
2008 CBR 125: Performance Pack; Dual Headlight Mod; Shortened Front Indicators; Shad SH-40 Top Box; 80/90 front, 120/80 rear


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:53 am 
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There has been a slight supply problem regarding the Carbon Fiber Clutch kit. I have been working on it and hope to have supply shortly.
Best Regards, Aaron


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:55 am 
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Clutch Kit
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Canada
Good to hear that there should be more soon! Thanks for the quick reply

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2008 CBR 125: Performance Pack; Dual Headlight Mod; Shortened Front Indicators; Shad SH-40 Top Box; 80/90 front, 120/80 rear


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:30 am 
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Racing ECU (!!)
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Location: Parksville, BC, Canada
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Wdavery wrote:
Hey there!
I'm doing some service on my 125 and I'm looking to grab one of your performance packs to get that little bit more out of the bike. But I have had some issue with the stock clutch slipping, which I hoped could be helped with the carbon fiber kit but I don't see that in the store anymore.
Is it no longer available or am I just missing it?
I'd like to get a lot more use out of this bike and I'll be following all of your products recommendations and videos to breathe some new life into. Thanks for the great content and great products!


Don't forget, the HD springs in the Performance Pack will help a great deal with clutch slip too :top:

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Marvin Miller
cbr125world Store

...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...


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