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...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...
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 Post subject: K&N filter?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:21 pm 
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Performance Pack

Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:02 pm
Posts: 1
United States of America
Would a K&N filter be beneficial for this bike? Are there issues with the bikes ability to breath as it sits stock? I've read of other owners removing the snorkel but the results don't sound like it benefited them much if at all.


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 Post subject: Re: K&N filter?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:59 pm 
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Racing ECU (!!)
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Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:21 pm
Posts: 535
Location: Parksville, BC, Canada
Canada
No, the K&N air filter is a waste of money. The OE filter is excellent and lasts a long time when not operated in dusty conditions. The snorkel mod is also a joke. There is an accurate formula for calculating overall intake tract length and the snorkel mod does not bear up to scrutiny at all.

In fact, the stock intake tract length, as measured from the centerline of the intake valve to the end of the bell at the snorkel is perfect for something around 12,000 RPM. Honda did their job (as they always do) on the overall design of the engine and they did not overlook the intake tract length when they designed it.

On top of that, removing the snorkel will make a bike quack like a duck. Intake tract length is an easy to predict science, it follows a set formula that works on any engine and the ideal design is a variable length tract that gets shorter as the RPM's increase and longer as the RPM's decrease.

This is why modern higher-end bikes, such as the R1, have a variable length intact tract, controlled by the ECU, that changes length in accordance with the RPM. Because the ratio is linear it's very easy to design a variable length intake tract.

With a fixed length tract you have to pick the RPM you are most likely to run at and set it to that length. This means that at that RPM your tract length will be ideal and at all others it will be a compromise. I forget exactly where Honda put it but I'm quite sure it was 1,000 RPM above the stock ECU's rev limiter which is 11,000 RPM.

With respect to increasing performance, it's quite silly to even bother when so much of it is lost at the clutch. This concept seems to escape most folks so I'll touch on it once more. Given that the stock clutch springs and clutch material make the bike extremely susceptible to clutch slip there's little point in finding ways to create more power when it just gets lost at the clutch. Every increase in power that you create will only make the clutch slip more.

This is why I designed the HD clutch springs and this is also why I got a company to develop a new Carbon Fiber clutch for these engines. This was undertaken specifically so that the foundation of the engine design could be shored up as a first step before adding more power.

I realize that this is a hard concept for people to grasp, but it's quite basic.

I realize that this in an entry-level bike, I understand that most riders do not have the experience with performance engines that I do, but at some point people need to shift over from looking for freebies with respect to power and actually following along with tried and true methods that are common amongst all engines/clutch designs.

The ideal pathway to power for this engine is;

  • Performance Pack
  • Carbon Fiber Clutch Kit
  • Camshaft
  • Everything else - with everything else being expensive ($$)

To save me from answering the same questions over and over, I developed a custom racing camshaft for this engine, it's fantastic, but it was not cost-feasible to put it into production when realistically, we might sell 10 of them - if that.

When weighed against the average income for a 125 owner this became entirely out of the question. I've seen people with the 125 actually go halfers on a Performance Pack because they could not afford $149.95 Canadian. This is a common occurrence in the CBR 125 world. There are typically 3 types of people that buy these bikes;

1) A person with income that wants to learn how to ride and get their license

For these people making the 125 faster is not important. It's just a means to an end. You can identify these people by their bikes being for sale in the paper when they have less the 1,000 kilometres on them. Once the bike has done it's job they buy the bike that they really wanted

2) A person that cannot afford anything larger

This tends to be the majority of 125 owners. They simply can't afford to buy anything else and they desperately need it to go faster - for zero dollars if at all possible. The Performance Pack, at $149.95 CDN is a hardship for them. They tend to come to the forum, steal as much free information as they can, and then try to come up with ways of doing the same thing for even less money. When they can't do that they tend to go on other forums and talk trash about the Performance Pack.

They are also the ones that buy just the clutch springs thinking they can buy other bits themselves in an effort to save $1.25 or so.

We see these people all the time. They have no respect for the development costs that go into making these products and then whine that they can't buy a camshaft. These folks then try to find a camshaft somewhere else, and if they find one, they install it never realizing it will last for 50 kilometers and the take out their engine in the process. All to save $30 or $40 from doing it properly in the first place.

These are the same people that we see coming into this forum, reading our experiences, and then posting them up on other sites acting as if they discovered them. The crankshaft bearings are a good example of this. Because they can't afford to buy a Performance Pack in the same breath they will take the time to publicly state something stupid such as the clutch springs are not necessary or that the clutch doesn't slip or some other horse shit. Why? Because they can't afford to buy anything that they actually, deep inside, want to buy.

3) People that really enjoy the bike and are appreciative of our efforts.

These are the people that we really like. They enjoy the bike, they see it as the marvel that it really is, 6 speed transmission, fuel injection, and a great one at that, and liquid cooled. All for $1995 or whatever they paid for it. They love it because they understand that even though it's an entry-level bike it represents decades of Honda engineering at it's finest. They marvel at the fuel economy, the incredibly low insurance rates, the remarkable appearance, the joy it is to ride, the fact that you can damn near put it your back pocket etc.

They understand the value of the Performance Pack, that it does not detract from the bike, that it only enhances the over-all bike and they see a lot of value in that. These people just buy it and are grateful. They send me emails mentioning how happy they are, when they need help we're happy to give it, they're ecstatic that they have someone 'in the know' on their side etc.

They also appreciate the path to performance that we've laid out for them. That it's logical, incremental and that they can stop at any time and not detract from the wonderous job that Honda did on the bike. They understand that they are improving it and they enjoy learning new things from it.

These folks are not in the least jealous or envious of us - to the contrary, they are ecstatic that someone is out there making things better for the 125. They are the type of people that check with me first before buying something questionable from overseas to find out what the real scoop is.

Unfortunately, these folks are much rarer then most 125 riders. They are the exception and not the rule. What we tend to see more then anything else is very poor people trying their best to scam us out of whatever they can. We get questions all the time, how many teeth does the sprocket have in the Performance Pack (always cloaked with the preface of, I want to buy one, I just need more information). It's very easy to see through these pin-heads, what they think is that if they just buy the same sprocket they will have the same thing for much less money. Nothing could be further from the truth.

We even had one fella in the UK come in and ask us about the Carbon Fiber clutch kit. He created an account on the site and then went and bought it off of e-bay for money. What kind of pinhead buys the same thing, from us, for more money off of e-bay when they can buy it here cheaper? (we charge more on e-bay to cover the e-bay fees - when a person buys from e-bay that extra money goes in trash - straight to e-bay - we see none of it).

So why would they register on our site and then buy it for more money from e-bay? That set a flag right away. So I send out their brand new Carbon Fiber clutch with springs and then, one month later I get an email from the buyer saying that he took his bike to a shop, they determined that the Carbon FIber clutch was used, that the springs were also used and he wanted to return it to get his money back.

Now how can that be? I personally designed and manufactured the clutch springs. I know damn well that I sent him brand new springs from my batch that were custom made according to my design. I also had the new Carbon Fiber clutches made to my specification. I have no other clutches to mail out.

You know what this person was doing? That's right. He was trying to send back to me his used OE clutch and springs that were just replaced in an effort to get his money back and keep the Carbon Fiber clutch and springs. In short, he was trying to defraud me and literally, get me to pay for his new Carbon Fiber clutch and springs.

I prosecuted the bastard to the extent that he immediately dropped the matter and disappeared. I mean, this guy was scared shitless after I got done with him. I smacked him hard.

But, unfortunately, this is some of what we have to deal with in the 125 market. All three of the above types of riders. I'll leave it to you to determine which one of these categories you fall into :top:

In the meantime, I'm sure I'll start seeing posts from other 125 riders, that have never bought anything from me, showing up on other sites containing some of the 'meat' from my work on intake tract length on other sites complete with their making it look like they 'discovered' all of this stuff themselves in an effort to make them look like they are something special, when really, all they are is a thief.

That paragraph above might help people understand why I restrict sections of this forum to people that have actually bought products from me. You would not believe how many people come in here and think that they are entitled to free information from me and that they do not have to buy anything. They think they are entitled. Those folks need to get a paper route, head down to the welfare office, or start picking up bottles and cans on the side of the road.

_________________
Best & Thanks!
Marvin Miller
cbr125world Store

...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...


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 Post subject: Re: K&N filter?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:21 pm 
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Performance Pack

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:50 am
Posts: 21
Switzerland
Hey Marvin.
Just back from the Montreal Bike Show and re-read your answer above.
Now this is a bit off topic, but your passion got to me.
I have been offered the opportunity to trade in my 125 for a CBR300 and was actually thinking about it.
At home I was going through the forum and re-read your comments and it got me thinking about the ''little'' 125 and why I've loved it so far.
Well ain't no way I'm selling or trading, since the addition of the performance pack no reason to, it does everything I need in about 95% of the riding I do and the other 5% well that's a price I'm willing to pay to have my WeeBR.
This all thanks to your time and effort in creating a great package and a very helpful forum.
I can not say thank you enough.
Dan


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 Post subject: Re: K&N filter?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:41 pm 
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Racing ECU (!!)
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Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:21 pm
Posts: 535
Location: Parksville, BC, Canada
Canada
You're welcome Dan and thanks for your kind thoughts. I think you've summed it up perfectly on the 125 front - there's really only about 5% missing :smile: Everything else is so good that it's very hard to part with.

I often think of getting rid of it. Every time I do, by the end of the ride, it does something really well and exceeds my expectations. It literally changes my decision every time :smile: and I come back home and that's settled :smile:

I've thought about the 300 and looked into them very closely. I'm always tossing the idea around of getting something else. But then reality sets in. I know that the Honda 300 will not rev like the 125 does. It seems the newer Honda's have all gone after low to mid range torque. That does not make for a very exciting bike.

I recall when the 250 came out and a fair number of folks had both the 125 and the new 250. Many of them commented that they preferred riding the 125. I can see why. Making power at low to mid-range might make sense in a car but on a bike it makes it....boring.

FYI, the Honda 300 is typical of the marque. Slowest of the 300's and very high build quality and reliability. And, as always, easy to ride. But I really think that you would find that it's a bike without any soul. This is something the 125 has in spades. It's up front and personal. You ring the snot out of it (or not) and it does it's thing. You make it do it. It's very much an expression of the rider and the rider makes the bike do what he wants it to. Whereas with the larger bikes, it always seems to be that the rider is just along for the ride. After all, how many times have you seen a CBR600 or an R6 come flying around a corner right over on it's side? I can answer that for you - almost never :laugh:

And yet, every time I'm out on the 125 and go around blind corners, with the bike on it's side, and as soon as the car coming in the other lane sees me - they freak out. Why? Because it's not something they ever see. They always see cars speeding along so it's not the speed that gets them. It's the fact that the bike is over on it it's side doing it's thing. I clearly remember one time when I was riding in traffic through corners on a certain section of highway. The traffic was going very fast that day (about 120) and there are medium corners on the road. So I'm in a pack with good drivers. So here I am, behind a car in the left lane, with a car right behind me in the left lane, and we're all going the same speed. Now here's the thing, on every corner I've got the bike right over (practically hanging off it) and this is just normal driving with more/less normal traffic. I mean, I'm right behind a car and I have a car right behind me, and I'm hanging off the bike on the corners :top: It's a hoot and it's a hoot for the car following me. They love it. I love it. Otherwise I'd be in the Cadillac or the Tracker and in either case, it would be BORING. Not on the 125 - on that it's MotoGP day! You get to be Marc Marquez - and at what? All of 120k? Now that's awesome!

Now if I was riding the 600RR it would be nothing. 120 on that bike is sitting up and reading a book. If you want to do the same work on that one as on the 125 you'd probably have to be doing 230. What I'm getting at is, you can really do MotoGP stuff on the 125 without absolutely shattering the law or killing yourself. You get the same joy - even more so - yet much less risk and much more fun and much lower consequences. For me it's really about the experience - not the actual numbers. Heck, if I could go 60 KPH and have the same fun...with the same lean...

You know, to me, that's the point that everyone misses when they think big .And then every time you see them on their 'big' bike it's always the same. They see a straight stretch and they nail it as hard as they can. And then they see the corner, and they lock up the brakes. And then I pass them on the corner, because they can't make that bike take the corner. And then they get offended, and then there's the straight stretch again - I mean, it's funny.

I think smart money, on something like the 300 front, would probably be the Ninja 300. As far as I know it's more of a high-strung cat like the 125 is. Apparently the Yamaha 300 is actually a little faster but the metal they used in some areas looks like crap and apparently the brakes are really bad.

My guess is the Ninja would be the one to get. It's either that or get the Honda 300 and then design camshafts for it so that it regains it's soul. But then, to do that properly, you have to have a real ECU, which, of course, is why I made one in the first place. But to me, it's doing the same thing over again as I did with the 125. All these things lead me to believe that probably the better 300 to get would likely be the Ninja. I haven't ridden any of them (yet) because 600's are so prevalent it's easier to ride them. But I like the notion (and it might be fantasy) of something like this, I get a Ninja 300, it's almost perfect, but it needs proper tires and suspension set up and once done, it's just like my 125 except faster.

In other words, all future bikes need to be just like the 125 in every respect, just faster. There's that 5% you mentioned at the start! :biggrin: And it's also very telling about just how good the 125 is. If there's only one thing wrong with it, that's a pretty darn good design, and, let's be honest, bikes come in all sizes so even the fact that it's a 125 is not actually a fault, it's the market it's intended to serve.

I think I've been spoiled by the 125 - it's now the standard by which all others are judged and the best thing I can think of is a new bike that I can modify to achieve what I already have with the 125 :blink:

_________________
Best & Thanks!
Marvin Miller
cbr125world Store

...because every day is MotoGP day when you own a CBR 125r...


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